It’s OK to be Not OK at Work, with Alissa Carpenter

This is professional Alissa. This is personal Alissa. You only talk about the professional in that space. And I have to look like, and act like the people who are working there. And I was almost morphing myself into somebody. I really wasn’t.  And I continued to do that for a little bit, and I saw other people on other colleagues do that to try to fit in, because we say this idea of bring your whole self to work, but sometimes we really mean bring your whole self to work if it looks and acts and feels like the majority group that’s there and that’s not okay. Right. You’re going to feel like somebody who’s different. It’s very hard to compartmentalize who you are, especially with everything just in general, going on in the world and we might be experiencing the same events, but are taking them in very differently based on our experiences and how our processing it.

So it’s very important to me to continue to get this message across that. Everything’s not okay. And it’s, it’s ok that we’re in that space and to keep growing and learning and developing it’s important as professionals at any level to create spaces where people can feel valued, people can feel heard and bring theirselves because you lose a piece of who you are and several pieces of who you are when you’re trying to compartmentalize something.

That’s just not,  it’s hard to put things in a bow and tie it up really nice, you know, to come to work the next day or working virtually or whatever that is. There’s always things going on, kind of in your back of your mind or trying to process.

Jackie Ferguson: And Alissa, from your perspective, how do we as leaders support  the people in our workplace, when they’re not okay, what are some of your tips there?

Alissa Carpenter: Sometimes it’s tricky to even see if not, you know, okay. Especially, you know, if you’re working virtually you’re not seeing people, for me, some of the signs is one to look out for those signs and those differences, if somebody’s attitude or, or way that they’re working is shifting, asking those questions.

How are you? And I think due to the pandemic and things going on. You can open that door a little more and say, you know, I’m really struggling, you know, being really vulnerable, sharing more about yourself. It’s not telling people to show up as they are. And then you hiding behind this facade. I know you probably might even hear my kids, my dog, like, it can be a little bit crazy here, but being kind of open and honest and vulnerable about where you are.

So then you are able to kind of have those conversations and not if somebody needs help or they’re saying that they’re not okay. Ask them, what do you need? How can I support you? Are there resources that you need? Are there tools because, you know, it’s one thing to ask the question and another to just give what you think might be helpful because that’s what you want, but we all need different things and it can just be new adjustment work schedule a little bit.

I’m finding it really hard with virtual school, just the timing.  Can we have different hours or I need a new laptop or window, whatever that case is, give that person a voice and ask, you know, what can I help you with support? What resources do you need right now?

Jackie Ferguson: Love that such great advice. So let’s talk about your company and some of the services that you provide. And then also, why did you start your company?

Alissa Carpenter: Yeah, it’s interesting because I started when I was working at Wharton and more of a side, obviously a side business working full time and in the career coaching space. So really working with professionals after they graduated, helping them find their space and their voice in the workplace.

And then it evolved to companies and organizations reaching out to me and asking, you know, how can I recruit and retain and engage these young professionals. We’re losing them really quickly. I don’t know what to do. How can we get them in our workspaces and help the kind of grow and develop here?

So that really shifted. And it was so incredible to be part of that process, both for young professionals and helping organizations, just seeing bridge and break through those communication barriers that are happening. And it really does essentially come down to communication of geographies and generations and job functions and races and ethnicities, and getting us to have these really open conversations. And now I do a lot of things virtually.  I have a class how to be a D&I changemaker course it’s online self paced with a mastermind group to get these conversations started set the foundations of what can be going on in your company, vocabulary. I do virtual keynote.

Speaking and training as well with organizations. And when the time comes going back physically into different organizations and industry events, talking about bridging and breaking down communications and creating those inclusive workspaces.

Jackie Ferguson: That’s so fantastic. And let’s talk about your book, how to listen and how to be heard inclusive conversations at work.

What prompted you to write this book and what are some of the things that we’ll learn by reading it?

Alissa Carpenter: Yeah. And it’s something I’ve been working on for a really long time. And it’s so interesting working on something pre pandemic coming out during the pandemic and how really quickly our world can change.

But the basis of everything to me again, is inclusive conversations. So it’s 16 chapters, they’re very short chapters and it touches upon a variety of different things. From toxic colleagues and how to have conversations with them. What does virtual work look like and how do we actually communicate across those barriers? What are the types of communication that makes sense? Because oftentimes we defer to our method. If I’m an email person or a text person I’m going to email or text you, and that might not be the way to communicate or get through to you. So it touches upon various different aspects. There’s a glossary of terms in there, right?

Just to kind of bring things down to the definitions of what they mean. If you’re talking to somebody. You may have a difference of opinion. How do you do that? How do you have these difficult conversations? So it really runs the gamut again, at the end of the day, to create these spaces where we’re having open conversations, people feel like you’re listening, you’re hearing what they’re saying.

And you’re taking action moving forward from those conversations. And it’s not a book necessarily for leaders, per se it’s people, because I do believe that anybody in any position has a voice and has the authority to say something and should be given the space to do so. So big or small it’s things that you can do each and every day to share your voice and empower others to share theirs.

Jackie Ferguson: You mentioned inclusive conversations and inclusive communication. How do we create inclusive,  conversations or lead inclusive conversations in our workplace?

Alissa Carpenter: Yeah. And I’ll take a step back for a minute because I think sometimes we get, I don’t wanna say definitions confused because right now we talking a lot about diversity. We’re talking a lot about inclusion, but I see them as different things. I’m part of a spectrum. So diversity to me is people and there’s three types of diversity.  So you have. Just the demographic diversity or race, ethnicity, gender, you have experiential, the experiences we have, then you have cognitive diversity, which is the different ways we think.

So we have all types of diversity and you’re going to fit in all these different buckets. And that’s more of a, like, this is a factor. We are, these things, inclusion is a practice. So taking that action forward, and your listeners probably know all these things, but when I think of inclusion or it’s things that we need to do to bring all those people in and have those voices.

So whether that’s being a mentor or. Sponsor for individuals reaching out during a meeting and a conversation of Jackie, we had a great real conversation about this in the hallway. Can we share this with the group? Because I think that they’ll find it as interesting, or allowing you to present during a meeting or a project, or just having these there’s so many mistakes companies make all the time, whether it’s products or services or things, and you’re thinking who did they talk to? You know, what, how did this get through? And it’s because we’re not including in thinking through the peoples. So it can be bringing in different people from different parts of the organization, seeing things from beginning to end, bringing in customers and clients and you know, what does this look like?

How does this evolve? How can we move forward? So it’s having those conversations where there’s different people with different voices, and they’re not just speaking, but you’re really listening what they have to say, acknowledging it, and taking that into consideration before making the decision. So not just asking people to ask, but really having that impact and influence the decisions moving forward.

Jackie Ferguson: And that’s such a learned skill, right? That’s not something that’s innate to us.  We want to hear the things that we agree with or that we, that resonate with us. Right. But when we’re hearing things that we disagree with, which you know, which is often right in the workplace, you’ve got to develop that as a skill, to be able to listen intently and, understand another perspective.

And I love that inclusion as a practice that you said that’s that is so spot on. It’s a continual thing that, that you’re making important in your organization. I love that.

Alissa Carpenter: It’s a part of our DNA or biology. Right. You know, thinking back to the caveman days, people who didn’t look like you were experienced life than you, they were a threat, they were scary. You really were threatened for your life. So we gravitate towards people who are similar to us and knowing that that’s what happens. We have to proactively think outside the box and proactively seek out people who are different from us and you don’t really want to, as much as it’s easy, right? Just surround yourself with people who love your ideas and are yes, people, you don’t grow, you don’t get developed, you’ve stopped.

You’re stagnant and your company, everything is stagnant. So even if we’re in the virtual space, Stays put yourselves in positions that almost ease your way in where you could be the minority in that group. So if there different virtual events that you can go to different questions that you can ask people, you can surround yourself with like take these steps to be outside.

So you can see what that, what that looks like, what that feels like and, and get different opinions. But it is part of our DNA. It’s just how we were born, you know, brought up. So, you know, it’s, it takes a lot of active effort to be able to do it. And it is scary. And I, I am definitely still working on it cause it’s just second nature to be around people who are like you.

Jackie Ferguson: Absolutely. But you’re right. That’s where innovation lies. It’s in those questions and in the, the uncomfortableness right. Of the, of the moment. Thanks for sharing that.

Alissa, tell us about your TEDx talk. I know a few people who have done these. Can you talk us through the process and the experience and then offer us a couple takeaways from your talk?

Alissa Carpenter: It was awesome to give a TEDx talk, but it was so different, and I do a lot of keynote speaking and this is so different from any other speech or process, that I went through. One is it’s shorter length, that 18 minutes or less so to come up with your idea and then just the nature of it and the story arc, and then the takeaways. So it’s, it’s such a different process to really come up with your idea and a succinct way. So people leave with not only the a-ha moment, but these actionable steps in less than 20 minutes to inspire people over that time is really incredible. It’s, it’s a really rewarding experience.

And the talk itself was Humanize Your Workplace One Conversation At A Time. And a lot of it is kind of the basis for the book about recognizing and understanding people’s intentions and showing empathy. And I share a few stories about the mistakes that I very much made and how the intention of our message and our voice can be very different than impact that it makes. And it doesn’t make the impact any less, any bigger, you know, what the other person feels is very realE  on their side and really understanding how it doesn’t matter what your intention was necessarily, but how things impact you and having these conversations and being open to being wrong and taking responsibility for those actions is huge.

I don’t wanna say it was a cathartic experience in some type of way, but you’re thinking deep down of what are these stories and experiences and being very vulnerable and sharing things that you may not otherwise have the position to be able to do. So I really, I enjoyed it. It was a good learning experience for me as well.

Jackie Ferguson: What are some of the issues, Alissa, that occur in the workplace when you don’t have good communication?

Alissa Carpenter: Everything. I think to me, communication, expectations, trust is a foundation to everything. When you don’t have good communication, you can’t possibly have trust. You don’t know what people’s expectations are of you, of yourself.  You’re not asking the right questions. You’re not bringing in the right people. You’re not getting in the feedback that you need. You’re behind on different products.

It’s everything and communication is it’s tough. It’s hard because there’s so many different components to it. It’s what we say. It’s what we don’t say. It’s everything really rolled into one.

And communication too is not just the speaking part. It’s the act of listening part. You know, we’re always thinking of talking about communication and what should we say, or what should we do? And half of it is what do we not say? You know, what, how are we listening to somebody else? How are we interpreting what they’re saying? And how are we kind of moving forward with it?

People aren’t mind readers as much as we want them to be. You know, people aren’t mind readers. And if we don’t say something and we don’t take action, we’re being passive aggressive in the way that we communicate. It all has a snowball effect from there. And if you get frustrated and we don’t bring it up, you’re going to get more frustrated when nothing happens, you know, and continue to move forward.

So to me, communication is, is really essentially the foundation of anything and everything that we do.

Jackie Ferguson: It makes me think of the, the awkward silence that so many people want to talk through rather than just letting something sit, listening, cause they’re thinking of their answer while the other person is talking. Right. Or what’s the response rather than really taking time to listen, give the air some, some silence, right. And then, coming back with a response, but people are so, you know, In the habit of not letting any dead air, you know, and I find this certainly in the, in the work that I do is there’s, there’s always the one that when it’s quiet has to speak, because it’s quiet and sometimes, you know, I’m okay with  letting the air settle and letting people think through. But a lot of people are so quick to respond that they’re not really thinking through what has been, you know, is being sad. And so that’s such an important point.

Alissa, what tips can you give us for good communication? What are the top two or three things that we should do and can do quickly?

Alissa Carpenter:  I think one is just, what is the best way to communicate with you for every day questions? And then what is the best way to communicate with you for emergencies again, specifically because we’re not in person. All, all of us aren’t necessarily in person identifying, is it email? Is it phone? And if it’s email, how many back and forth emails is it before we hop on the phone or we hop on a zoom call. So it’s not this kind of back and forth. And what are your expectations for email? Is it getting back to me in 24 hours, 48 hours?

So setting these foundational. Kind of questions and I’ve seen a lot of people even do those. A communication sheet of this is me. This is what I like to do. This is the best way to communicate with me and everybody on their team has this, these documents that you can go through and they’re living and breathing and ever changing.

So identifying your best way to communicate and your teams as well. So then you’re on that same page, you know, or else that email is going to sit there. Somebody’s not going to get back to your text. So, so no everybody where stands and how you can best work together.

Jackie Ferguson: Absolutely. Now, Alissa, I’m going to move this into a little bit of personal, based on our last conversation. I know that you have been with your husband since high school, which is so fantastic.  You know, kudos because that is hard to do, you know, as people grow and, and become who they are as adults, you know, sometimes they can go in different directions. So I love that you’re together. Do these communication tips, or what communication tips transfer to our personal relationships?

Alissa Carpenter: It’s funny because I think a lot of the skills transfer between your personal and your professional relationships and your, your personal life. Back to the mind reader comment, I think sometimes I want my husband to read my mind. We’ve been together for over 20 years. How do you not know what I’m thinking or what I’m saying?

And it doesn’t work like that. You know,  being open, being honest, being transparent goes. A really, really long way. And in your personal life, obviously, I’m very different who I was in high school and college. We have two children, we have a job, you know, your, your life and responsibilities are ever changing and your expectations are ever changing and things are just being thrown at you.

So starting those conversations and just being really open and I find that in it. In our personal relationship it’s even if we go out to like a fast food restaurant and sit there or something, those conversations are very different than if we were for, in our house, like changing the scenery a little bit, to have more personal conversations and just know that that’s why we’re here putting away our phones.

I’m obsessed. I carry my silly phone with me everywhere, but not that it’s face down that it’s completely out of the room, so they know that the attention is on them on, you know, not other things it’s, it’s still so important because I think sometimes I take for granted that we’re always here. We’re always together. Don’t, you know, where don’t you see and that’s, that’s not the way it is. So communication is still really, really important in your professional or personal relationships and scheduling this fun zoom calls with them. Friends.

And I put notes actually on my calendar, reach out to this person. Remember it’s their birthday, send a thank you card. You know, all of those things, because things just happen so quickly. And I think weeks go by days, years, and then, you know, you haven’t contacted somebody, you haven’t reached out. So I try to be proactive about it because I can’t remember. So I write it down oftentimes so I’m more proactive.

Jackie Ferguson: That is such good advice, write things down and those reminders, because you’re right, the days just get away from us and days turn into weeks and weeks turned into months. And before we know it, you know, it’s been a year since we’ve seen someone or, or reached out to them. Love that.

So Alissa, a lot of us are feeling not okay with COVID, with social justice issues, with a recent political unrest. For me, you know, some days just feel very heavy with,  the work that I do ,Even though I love it so much, right. And some days feel overwhelming. Can you share some of the ways that you are not okay currently?

Alissa Carpenter: So many ways, especially the past few months, it ebbs and flows in terms of emotions of I can do this, I can work through this. And then I just, I need a moment, you know, I need my break. I need it’s a lot. It almost seems like everything is just consistently piling up. And when will this pile kind of collapse or move on or, you know, whatever that case is.

And. Part of unfortunately or fortunately, whatever the case is of the privilege that I have is sometimes I can turn it off. I can turn my phone off. I can walk away. I can spend some time with my kids and play game and not have any technology or not see anything and not everybody has that privilege that you’re in that space where you can be able to do that.

So one recognizing the privilege that you have to be able to do that. And I talked to a lot of people of, are you okay? I’m not all right. What’s going on with you? Let’s let’s triage this. I write stuff down and I, I try to give myself grace, if there’s so many times where I just can’t function in terms of  writing this or getting this done and it’s okay.

You know, I know when I am in that space, it will be done better and faster and it will just be all around and a better place, and to not force something that’s not there,  cause our brain needs space. We all need self care. And as much as I would like to say, a massage and whatever will help, it just, it’s very short term, you know, thinking about your,  what is something that is sustainable for you?

What is something in those moments that you can give yourself grace for people who you can connect with have, that will help you through those in general, not okay moments.

Jackie Ferguson: That’s great advice. You know, for me, I’ve taken social media off my home page and my phone , and it’s been so helpful to just not have that, as part of what I’m looking at all day every day. Right. And you’ve got to take those breaks, like you said, it’s so important to just stop and put things on hold. It can wait, but you definitely, that is part of self-care. Absolutely.

Alissa Carpenter: Cause it’s so easy to go down that rabbit hole of this person said this negative comment.

Now, who are they friends with? That also said this negative comment, and then researching the article that the comment, and before, you know, it it’s,  I’m not in a good place. And I don’t say I put myself in that bad place, but there was a way for me to, by removing the social media from my phone, I’ve actually set time limits now per day.

You know, only look at this for this certain amount of time. And that’s been very helpful to just bring awareness to what’s going on because you just, I can just fall deep into the rabbit hole for quite some time. And when you realize, and you get your air of, wow, like I just put myself in this, in this space, I can try and create systems that can help change that.

Jackie Ferguson: Absolutely. So Alissa, I read that you like nineties hip hop and that was an unexpected find. I love that. So what’s the 411 on that? And if you, if anyone missed you, don’t listen to 90’s hip hop if you miss that reference, Alissa, I love that you caught that.

Alissa Carpenter: How can you not love 90’s hip hop? And I’m like, Just so I don’t know. Being born in the 80’s, growing up with a 90’s, it’s just, and now like I use the Peleton app and I love it, how it works. So it’s like his music. It just brings me back. just as the stories that they tell them, the songs and, Oh, it’s just, I love it so much.

It just. It’s the best. It’s such a great, I want to say distraction from – it pumps me up. Like it got work to do, like, let me listen to this music or we’ll do dance parties at our house. Then, before I realized some of the words and some of the songs. So I’ve been trying to find edited versions of some songs, but, oh its just the best.

Jackie Ferguson: I love that. Oh my goodness. So this is my favorite question to ask. And I try to ask this on every podcast. Tell us something about you that not a lot of people know.

Alissa Carpenter: I feel like I’m such an open book in so many ways.  As much as I love people and public speaking and being around people, I really don’t like, and I’m so nervous about networking events, where I don’t know anybody you’re going into a place where I don’t know anybody. I panic a lot, maybe panics, not the right word, but if I’m I have a large speaking event, it’s not that im nervous about the event.

It’s where am I going to park? How am I going to get there?  all the logistical pieces I really struggle with. And then I’ll be up the night before worried whether it be a parking spot or things that are so silly when probably most people are like, wow, you’re going to be speaking in front of a thousand people. It’s so nervous. I’m like, Oh my gosh, is there- do I have to parallel park do. I mean, it’s like the little silly things, that really make me nervous.

Jackie Ferguson: I love that you said that, that, you know, that’s, it’s so true because we see this, you know, you’re, you’re very articulate put together, you know, great communicator.

And it’s so interesting to think that you might be up the night before thinking about where are you going to park? I love that, but we all have those. You know, those fears and those concerns and those, those things that make us nervous, certainly. I’m exactly the same. And, you know, I’ve recently gotten into, you know, having a podcast and speaking in public and it it’s been nerve wracking and it’s been a challenge.

And, certainly Jason,  our producer and some others know that. As I started this, you know, I was, you know, basically hyperventilating in my first couple of podcasts and now, you know, over time it, it gets easier and, you know, I get more comfortable, but it’s a challenge, you know, but you’ve got to lean into those things that you’re afraid of sometimes. And I love that you said that, so thank you.

Alissa, what would you like to leave our listeners with today?

Alissa Carpenter: So much, but I think, i mean yes, it’s my business name, but truthfully everything’s not okay. And really that’s okay. And I think recognizing that and understanding that and giving yourself grace and taking those steps to create those more.

Okay. Better than OK. Moments. Again, I think as a society, sometimes we’re just told, be fine. You know, when everybody asks you, are you okay? The default is. I’m fine. I’m good. I’m great. You know, or whatever it is and you move on and I encourage you, if it’s somebody who’s asking you that question, who you feel comfortable with and saying, you know, I’m not right now, I’m just struggling with X, Y, and Z, or just be honest with yourself about it.

Because I think it’ll help learn and grow and develop, and you’d be surprised how many people are also experiencing, trying to balance all of these things and want somebody else to talk to about it and learn from those experiences. So just being honest and open with yourself, and if you have the opportunity to do so with somebody, you know, like trust and can relate to.

Jackie Ferguson: Love that. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today. You can find Alissa Carpenter at notokaythatsokaycoach.com and look for her book, How to Listen and How to be Heard: Inclusive Conversations at Work, wherever books are sold. Alissa, thank you again so much. I really enjoyed spending time with you today.

Alissa Carpenter: Thank you, Jackie. It was amazing.

Jackie Ferguson: So Alissa in the workplace, when you’re on these zoom calls or in a meeting, what happens or what do you do when someone says something that is offensive, hurts your feelings and makes you feel not okay. What’s your advice there?

Alissa Carpenter: It happens a lot, unfortunately. And I share in my TEDx talk a couple examples, one of which unfortunately, where I’ve done that with somebody else, and made somebody feel uncomfortable. And there was a situation that I still think about a lot from one of my first jobs from graduate school, where we were sitting around the table as a group, as a team and my supervisor, said to me that my face looked like the map of Jerusalem, and we’re all sitting together and it was just out of nowhere, made completely no sense. And I was so offended by it and I didn’t know what to do or say, and I wound up not doing anything, which really wasn’t the right thing.

And I was nervous, you know, being a young professional,  and I think looking back and learning from that experience, it’s important to address those issues. Cause I keep thinking what if they’re saying those things or doing those things to other people, you know, at this point, and maybe nobody is saying anything, and they don’t know that they’re doing something wrong or saying something offensive, unless somebody really brings it up to them.

But to me, it’s not bringing it up in that moment with other people around,  pulling that person aside and letting them know how you feel and being very specific. I was offended when you said my, my Facebook, like the map of Jerusalem and it made me feel really upset.  You know, why did you say this?

Having these conversations in this open dialogue is really important, but not as, as a group, and calling attention so that individual feels like they’re attacked. And I wish there was a playbook for if this person says this, and then you say this, but you don’t necessarily know the direction of the conversation.

And. And I think it goes to some of the points that we were talking about before, about the intent and the impact of the message. Well, to me, this one is very blatant of what was the intent of your message here and how did you want that to come across? Some of them aren’t so specific, you know, some are very vague and that’s where microaggressions come in.

And that’s just where all these other components come in and really assuming that really the, that they weren’t coming from this bad place, that they were making a comment or just trying to have this conversation, but having that open dialogue with that person and letting them know how it made you feel, having that other person be open, right.

And honest about where they were coming from or what next steps that they would take or making suggestions moving forward. But that’s going to be a learning process and a learning curve. That person might say something again that’s offensive. And then you bring it up again. That person might do something else that may be offensive.

It’s again, easier if you have a relationship with that individual or would that person then just to, you know, outright call out that individual, but it’s important to start those dialogues and to start those conversations. So you feel more comfortable in that space. And then that person could potentially be aware of what they’re saying and hopefully make changes moving forward.

But no, it’s not immediate. No, it’s not something that’ll take place in that moment or maybe overnight it is continuous conversations moving forward.

Jackie Ferguson: Thanks for sharing that. Alissa that’s great advice.