Restorative Justice and Repairing Ancestral Harm, with David Ryan Castro-Harris

Jackie: Hello listeners, and thank you for joining Diversity Beyond the Checkbox Podcast. My guest today is David Ryan Castro-Harris. David is the founder of Amplify RJ, speaker, and facilitator. David, thanks so much for joining us. 

David: Yeah, thank you for having me. 

Jackie: So, David, I always like to try to start by asking a little about you, you know, whatever you'd like to share, whether that's your background, something about your identity, your family. What would you like to share?

David: And I think a good place to start is just my name. Right? David Ryan Barcega Castro-Harris. Barcega is my middle name, which is my mom's maiden name, and I think names are important for a lot of reasons. David is also my father's name. So Ryan is a name that, on the surface might just seem like, oh, it's a name, but because I'm half Filipino, Filipino culture, they do interesting things with names sometimes.

So R Y A N are letters taken from Ruth, my maternal grandmother's name. Y A N from Yolando, my maternal grandfather's name. That's that, Barcega is my mom's maiden name in Filipino culture. we often just slide that in as the child's, middle name and then Castro-Harris is the name of that both my wife and I have. Right. we both decided to hyphenate and, you know, Castro has Italian roots. Thinking about the explorers who quote unquote explorers, colonizers, if you will. if you came to central America her family has roots in El Salvador and immigrated here as refugees.

And then thinking about Harris, a name that has Scottish roots, right. but that was given to my dad's family, probably by the people who enslaved us and quote unquote bought us after we were brought here against our will as cargo from west Africa. And so when I think about. Who I am and whose shoulders I stand on, if you will.

My name encompasses so many of those things beyond that I use he him pronouns. I'm a brother, son, grandson, partner, soon to be father, nervous about that and excited. But yeah, 

Jackie: that's me.

That's fantastic. Thank you for sharing that, David, you know, I want to dig in a little bit on the name because very often in our culture, our society really, we kind of skim over that or mispronounce stuff and like, oh, they know what I mean or people feel a need to even shorten their names to make it easier for other people to pronounce. You know, tell me a little bit about, you know, if you've talked to your parents about like where your name comes from, cause you've got all of this amazing information, like what was their thoughts around being very deliberate in how to name you, right. Did you have a conversation with them about that? 

David: I think my dad just wanted to name me after himself. And Ryan, is my aunt's middle name as well. So my mom's sister, like she had that name from her parents, right. And so like, that's where that came in. And so like, it also means like beloved, David means beloved and Ryan means little king.

And so like, I think that was like a part of part of that., but you know, I think in growing up, like I've decided to give it more meaning than most people I think do, right. growing up, I was Ryan because people didn't want to confuse me for my dad, my parents, but like I, when I was 11 years old, going into eighth grade.

I was like, Ryan is a child's name. I'm David now. So it's kind of been that ever since I've gone by David, Ryan Harris, I've gone by DRH. most people don't call me by all five names. Most people call me David. But I really do think it's important to be able, especially when I tie it to this work, to be able to take that time to slow down and say like, no, this is who I am and it's important. And I'm not saying that everybody has to do this for themselves, but if you decide to make meaning, and be intentional about certain things about you can really have an impact on the people that you're engaging. 

Jackie: Well, I love that you're embracing your family and your ancestry all in that name, right. Do a lot of people ask you about that as part of, right? 

David: Oh yeah. Like I'm pretty upfront with it. Especially when we're in spaces where I may be facilitating. and I think it really just makes people stop and think about their, who they are. And I think, you know, so much about the work that I do, is about, you know, our ancestors have done so much to bring us to where we are and we are future ancestors. So what is the impact that we're going to have on the world? So yeah, this is just some of the ways that I think about all that. 

Jackie: That is great. You know, we often don't think about that, but we, our future ancestors and we do have to think about, you know, all of us, right? What's the legacy that we want to leave. So I love that. Let's talk about Amplify RJ. So RJ stands for restorative justice. Let's, right, start the conversation by understanding what restorative justice means.

David: Yeah, thank you for that question. the reason that I started Amplify RJ is because when you hear the words restorative justice, I would guess like maybe two to 5% of the population can give you a good definition. A classic definition from someone named Howard Zehr would describe restorative justice the process to repair harm between people, to the extent possible involving the people who have caused repair the relationship, right. 

When I think about restorative justice, I think about it a little bit more expansively. I think about it as a practice, but also like philosophy and way of being that is rooted in our interconnection, right. And when I talk about interconnection, I do think a lot about our ancestors. When we think about words like ubuntu right I am because you are, I am because we are right. That's a core principle of many people in Southern Africa.

Right? Think about the other half of my ancestry. in Baybayin, which is a pre-colonial language of the Philippines there's this word Kapwa in tagalog, which is modern Filipino. It's this idea of togetherness, but Kapwa in Baybayin is this idea of, the inner self and all beings is connected.

Right? And it's not just Africans, it's not just Filipinos. here on this continent, right? The Lakota have this phrase and like we are all relatives the Dineh or the Navajo have this phrase about like, like inner peace and harmony between people the Mayans have the phrase in like yet y'all again, I am another, you, you are another me.

And so when that's the organizing principle of your people of your community, when there is conflict, Of course, you're going to want to repair harm, right? Because those people are a reflection of you. You can't throw somebody away, right. Restorative justice is the opposite of punitive or retrospective justice, right.

Where we are causing more harm to the person who caused harm. Right. That's not fixing a problem. Right. And so to restore back to a relationship to restore a relationship to being in right relationship that's so necessary. It's often a lot easier to do that restoration piece if we don't sorry. If we already have relationships rooted in equity and trust to start with.

So I think there are proactive things that go along with that, but that is a framework for restorative justice right there. 

Jackie: Got it, got it. That's helpful, thank you. So David, you're talking about repairing harm. How do we begin to do that as individuals?

David: Yeah. And I think, you know, thinking about harm can be like a very expansive question. Right, even as I thought I talked about like, you know, my ancestors were brought here against our will, as property, right? Like that is, what many called the first harm, I would call it the second harm of this country.

Right, the first harm being genocide of the indigenous people who were here, right, and so like, how do we repair that harm? Well, those are like 400-year projects that happen moment to moment, right? There is systemic harm and that systemic harm that continues to happen because of the way that it's been a white supremacy and colonialism and imperialism have been entrenched in all of our systems.

But we can also think about not just the institutional and systemic, but the interpersonal harm that happens between people. And like that's where I think many people start with this right. If you think about. Somebody who has caused you harm, think about the feelings that you feel in that moment when you've been harmed or the feelings, that you feel like in moments after.

Right. And what do you need? You know, you're often going to feel angry, upset, hurt maybe fearful, maybe lonely, isolated, you know, like there's physical hurt as well as like mental, emotional shame, guilt, right? and you need support from your community, right? Maybe it's like your physical needs getting met.

You need time and space to process things. you need an acknowledgement of the harm happening to you. You need to, make sure that it doesn't happen again. You need to be safe. Right. You know, and so, you know, sometimes you're a community can meet those needs for you. Sometimes those are things that have to happen from the other person.

But if you think about a time when you caused harm, right. intentional or unintentional, like what you felt and need in the moments after are often really similar, right? When you cause harm, it's probably because you were trying to get a need met, right? So like you might be feeling angry, upset, sad, frustrated.

And then after that happens, like, oh, scared about what's going to happen to me. Also lonely and isolated, fearful, and you need support from your community. You need to make it right. You need to apologize. You need to acknowledge that you caused harm, right? you need support in taking those steps to make it right.

You might just need some time and space to process it. You need to be safe. And so like thinking about people who cause harm and who have been harmed, needing similar things really puts us in this position where it's like one, we can intellectualize that, you know, quote unquote hurt people hurt people.

But like we are all people who have caused harm in are harmed. It happens every day. And so how do we move forward in a way that is not throwing away people who cause harm because that's all of us, right? And of course it happens at different degrees and there are people who have, or a dedicated to.

I'm going to stand in my wrongness because like, I don't want to give up power or perceived power, but I think that's a really helpful framework for people to start thinking about like, what are the needs of the people involved in instances of harm and how can we meet those needs either as the two people involved or the community that supports those individuals?

Jackie: That's such good advice, you know, and just thinking about we're all people who cause harm and have been harmed. So it, it kind of level sets, right. Because what happens I think in conversations that I have with professionals or with people, you know, just in the community is that they don't know what to say.

They don't know how to apologize. They don't know how to own that right that hurt that they've caused an and a lot of times just realize the thing that, you know, as they move through their day to day, they can be causing harm, right. With microaggressions and just, you know, different ways that they're not being respectful or sensitive or creating safe environments. So. I, I like the level set of where all, you know, people who have caused harm and have been harmed.

Are there one or two things David, that you would recommend, you know, in thinking about how to repair that? So the apology piece and acknowledging that, very important. How do we, how do we start that conversation with someone that we feel we've harmed?

David: Yeah. I think one of the fundamental differences between restorative and punitive approaches to harm are the questions that you ask in the process, right? With a punitive approach, it's often focused on rule breaking, right? So like what rule or law was broken, who did it and what can we do to that? It's punish them.

Right. that's a different set of questions from what happened, who was impacted and how, and how, what do we need to do to make things right? Or as right as possible, right. So if you're someone who has caused harm in that process, right, it's really going to a person who you've harmed and said like, hey, I did this, I am sorry for doing this. I'm not sorry if what I did hurt your feelings, like, I'm sorry for doing this. I understand that it had XYZ impact if you know, and if you don't know, it's like, hey, I would love to hear the impact that this had on you in anything that I can do to correct it and really be open to that.

Right. You can't just say that and like have expect someone to share those things with you, which is a very vulnerable thing. And it's like, sorry, not going to do that, but sorry. 

Jackie: Yeah. I mean, that's such good information. And you know, for me personally, just to share David, I'm the type of person that's going to apologize if your feelings were hurt, right.

Not apologize. Like I'm, I'm getting, I'm now learning right in the work that I'm doing, that there was a better way to apologize. But a lot of times we're even in the apology, we're still on the defense. Right. And we've got to be able to open up so that it encourages other people to open up restorative as such a key word. And I think that's amazing. 

David: Oh yeah. And it's built into our culture, right. To protect ourselves. Right. everybody's afraid of being canceled, but like what's underneath that, right, people often talk about that as like being afraid for their livelihoods. But I think underneath that is like, people are afraid of being disconnected from their communities.

Right. And when we move in a world that so easily cuts people off, there is a lot of good reason for people to be scared because humans crave connection, human beings want to be in good relationship with each other. And so what is the thing that we're going to do? We're going to deny this harm or like, oh, I'm sorry.

If your feelings were hurt, that wasn't my intention. So I can still stay in good relationship with like all these other people. So they don't think I'm bad, right. But, you know, we're not at like, I don't think the good bad binary is helpful to describe people. I think their actions that cause harm and their actions that are beneficial.

Right. and we all do both every single day. and so while we intellectually know those things, they're not always present for us and to extend that vulnerability for ourselves, it's something to model right? Day to day, moment to moment. It doesn't happen every single time, but like, what if we did it one more time than we did before?

Jackie: I love that. David, tell me what Amplify RJ does. 

David: So Amplify RJ is a platform dedicated to educating people about restorative justice on two levels, one on like this massive public education, like I want people to know what restorative justice is beyond just like, oftentimes when people hear restorative justice, they think in the circumstances of the criminal legal system or like alternatives to suspension in school. And like, while that repair of harm process does exist there and is needed there. I also want people to start thinking about all the ways that we proactively practice some of these ways. And so like that massive public education is one way so people can understand like, oh, this applies to like our everyday interactions as well. Not just like it belongs in these spaces. 

The other part that, of what we do is offering deeper learning opportunities. Courses, classes, workshops professional development, and providing community for people who are trying to continue to learn this work moving forward. Right? Because like this isn't just something that you intellectually. Take a workshop. Got it. Check the box, move forward. Like if you're not practicing being this way, with people who are also trying to practice with you being this way they're not going to take root and last, so deeper learning with community to support.

Jackie: Love that.

And it's so important in just reiterating what you said that it's a practice, right? It's something that's, you're continually doing. You, you can't get to the end of it right, where you're like, okay, I've, I've got. Right. It's something that you do in every single day in, in all the ways that you're thinking about engaging with people. So that's, that's so important. 

David, I'm interested in, you know, I always ask this question about how people get to what they're doing, right. Where their passion is. Tell me, you know, certainly you're very connected with family, but how did you get to this as a passionate part of your life work?

David: Work? Yeah. So I think my family raised me to be someone who was of service to others and that could that's infinite. That could be a lot of things. I think when I came out of college, sorry, came out of high school. I, I wanted to be a psychologist like a counselor, cause I wanted to help people in that kind of way. I did general ed my first year of college. And so I wasn't really taking psychology classes, but as soon as I started taking psychology classes in my second year, I was like, Nope, this isn't it.

But like, so I quickly changed to a major, I became an x-ray tech and that was something that. I, you know, I knew I could complete a degree in four years and have a job and have a job forever. I still am a licensed x-ray tech. I don't practice anymore, but I am still that. But after doing that work for only a year, I realized that, you know, it wasn't stretching me as much as like I could do in the world.

And so I started working in this employment program, helping folks find work. And in that employment program, the people that we had the most difficult time working with were those who had records with the criminal legal system, right. Because they would go apply for jobs, and either lie on their applications saying that they didn't have a felony and they get fired two weeks later when the background check would come back or they would be honest and have their applications thrown in the trash.

Right. And so at that point, I started thinking about how to subvert the criminal legal system, understanding that like the school to prison pipeline exists, the foster care to prison pipeline exists, the war on drugs is still an issue, right?

Why aren't we, doing things to subvert, all of that, right? How are we meeting the needs of the people proactively and how do we have an alternative instead of just like throw all these people in jail. And along the way, I found the word restorative justice and it's kind of been, I mean, it started with the YouTube wormhole and then reading books and going to grad school.

Finding mentors, being annoying and showing up at trainings, begging like, hey, can I do this for free? I don't have any money. I'm a poor grad student. Who's driving Uber for a living. And being in relationship with folks who are practicing this way, being this way they taught me that again, like my initial thoughts about this were like, oh, subverting, the criminal legal system, which is important, but that's where I learned how these are community practices. Rooted in all of our ancestry. Right. 

And how can we acknowledge that? Like, you know, indigenous folks here on this continent, right. Practice, these ways, they still have kept these ways alive. And how can we continue to make sure that folks remember, you know, that this is our way of being, that will help us be in right relationship?

Jackie: Absolutely. Just again, to reiterate what you're saying. It's about the relationship. It's about connectivity right. And it's so often that as a society, we're looking to categorize people and put them in boxes different from ourselves. But what you're saying, and in so many beautiful languages, right, is that we're all connected and finding that way to be connected, gives us more of an accountability to each other that I think aligns with, with restorative justice. And I think that's beautiful. And if more of us focused on that, right. What, what kind of world could we create together? 

David: Yeah, absolutely. 

Jackie: Love that. David, tell me the difference in your opinion, between restorative justice and diversity equity and inclusion?

David: You know, in the last year and a half, right? Since May, June of 2020, there has been a reawakened or. I don't know what word we're using right now, reawakened racial justice reckoning, there are lots of people who make arguments that like, there hasn't been a lot of real impact, but let's say that like, there has been a race consciousness for some people about the need for more diversity equity inclusion.

And I think when we look at the root of the word diversity, right, it's just about like, you know, different people from different backgrounds being in a space, right? the origin of the word diversity diversus in Latin. Right? One of. The first times that it was used was in a papal bowl called dum diversus.

So you can look it up. That was the Pope giving the king of Portugal, the okay to go into Africa and diversify the kingdom of Portugal by bringing back slaves right to serve the kingdom, like we are diverse, and have we included them into our space? You know, we have, right, and I know that inclusion can be about like, you know, belonging and making people feel like they have power in the space. 

Equity I think soar starts to get us to where like people from different backgrounds are included into these spaces and are included in decision-making and have power the spaces, but conversations around diversity and inclusion are often just about how do we include people from quote unquote included people from quote unquote diverse backgrounds into our systems that are entrenched in white supremacy already, right?

That aren't interested in power power-sharing that are defensive about the ways that they cause harm that are about efficiency and profits over people, right? They are about, making sure that things get done with the sense of urgency. There are about, you know, hierarchies. They're not about acknowledging and celebrating people for all of who they are.

I think that proactive piece of restorative justice, where we're getting to know each other, when we're in good relationship with each other, where we're seeking to meet each other's needs within the context of a company where you are working side by side with people or where you are serving people who have different identities that are marginalized, like you're really working towards equity and being in good relationship.

Those are different approaches and I think restorative justice not only gives us a different frame, right, to one acknowledge that interconnection and wanting to be in good relationship, but also being able to repair the harm that has happened and continues to happen. 

Jackie: Got it. And David, what do you say to people that say, that was so many years ago, right? Like you can't, we can't possibly be affected or be angry about something that happened 400 years ago or more, right. What's your response? 

David: First of all, I'm not often in conversations with people who are asking those questions, because I think like when we're talking about restorative justice, you've probably done a little bit more work than that, but I think like I would bring it back to some of the questions that I asked earlier, right. We think about what happened, right and that's why teaching history is so important now. Like I saw something on the internet earlier today about like, instead of calling it critical race theory, just call it actual US history, right. So like, if we think about what happened in US history and then thinking.

Oh, that's the, what happened? The impact of that, thinking about how people have been impacted, generation to generation to generation you know, what are the things that we can do to make that right? Even though that it wasn't, you, like, there are still impacts. even though it wasn't me, there are still impacts.

Right? And so in order to make things equitable, right if that is your goal, there are probably some things that need to change. There's some power that needs to be shifted. and I understand that feels like loss but if you don't want to be about equity, just say it and then, all right, we know where you stand, you know, and I think a lot of people who are coming with those questions aren't necessarily operating in good faith, right. They're just trying to like, they're, they're being defensive of their position, their power and you know, the way things have been, yeah. 

Jackie: That makes sense. You know, from my perspective, as I work with organizations, I'm often asked he question about, why does this matter now? Right? Why do we have to move in this direction? Which is a little bit scary for people and a little bit uncomfortable for people to, you know, change the way they've always thought about situations or people. Right. And, and too, so the people certainly in your circle around restorative justice are different from people that are encountering these ideas for the first time.

But many of our listeners are trying to like wrap their head around all of the things that come with, you know, moving away from white supremacy and the way that. So, you know, things have always been done, right. And I'm using my air quotes for those that are listening, 

David: Right, always been done, sure like over the last 40 years, 150 years, 400 years, I get that that's a long time, but over the span of human history, it’s not that long, there was a world before there's a whole world before the systems that we had and, you know, I understand that late-stage global capitalism has made things a lot more complicated. But I think for those people, right, who are struggling to even say the words, white supremacy, right. Because I know that the thing, and I know I just like, kind of just casually slipped it in there because that's the language that I use.

To for folks listening, right, not white supremacy, marching with the Klan burning crosses using racial slurs or marching on the Capitol on January 6th. I'm talking about white supremacy being the way that whiteness and white bodies are upheld as powerful, right. Moral, just and privileged in almost all institutions that exist within Western society. And that system is upheld by people of all different backgrounds, right. In order to get to where you and I are, Jackie, even as people of the global majority of white people, aren't the global majority they're the global minority, we have had to assimilate in some way shapes and forms into whiteness and white culture in order to be where we are and we're trying to dismantle those things.

But I would, what I would say to people who are struggling with those ideas is not to always use the language like that, start by talking about their values. Right and when you have someone talk about like compassion, respect, Equity. All right. Those are values. Those are abstract ideas that most people can agree about. All right. So what do those values look like in action? 

Jackie: That is great advice, right? Because sometimes, you know, when you get into those phrases that are hard to say, as you said, right there, they're hard to just have them come out of your mouth yeah. because but you know, when you think about.

Your personal values, right? Those are things that we can agree on, you know, when you think about compassion or you think about respect, I don't think most people, don't think those are important, right? Like I want to give respect, I want to be compassionate. Most people think that, so then it becomes about, all right, how do we do that?

How do we do that in a meaningful. 

David: Yeah. Will you respect me by using the pronouns that are my pronouns, right? Will you respect me by not making fun of the way that my hair is styled? Will you respect me by not interrupting me? Right? Like these are simple things and if we take like the politics of like the left-wing agenda and critical race theory and the queer agenda, like out of those things, it's just like human to human.

Like treat me how I am asking you to treat me right. With respect to dignity, equity. Give me the opportunities that you would want for yourself, right, for your children. People who both cause harm and are harmed, like feel the same things need the same things. It's, you know, full circle moment right there.

Jackie: Absolutely. Let's talk about your goals with Amplify RJ. What do you hope to accomplish long-term with your organization? 

David: I've been working a lot with educators, right. And Part of that is just due to my network and connections that I have. And the word restorative justice do travel a little bit in education circles, people might not fully know and fully practice well, but there are a lot of educators in a lot of school systems that are trying to implement restorative practices.

And so I've been able to do that, but what I've realized is, you know, very, very few educators learned about this in their teacher training in college and university. And so providing deep learning for those folks, it's not just about okay. This full day PD and now you've got it. No, like these are either practice about, about who you are.

And so like providing those learning opportunities either through schools or as individuals, coming to like some of my public facing work, I think this work belongs in corporate spaces as well. I I've learned over the last year of trying to have conversations in the DEI world. People aren't necessarily ready for that yet on, on, in mass, on scale. And so that's a little bit more of a long-term thing. 

Outside of the teaching and learning, and, you know, whatever spaces welcome me, I really do think about that massive public education piece, which you know, thinking about like the currency of the 21st century is people's attention and where's people's attention.

So how do we make sure that restore themes of restorative justice are showing up wherever people are consuming content, whether that is in like mainstream media, like movies, music, and TV, or like on social media. And so continuing to grow, my platforms and try to like influence other people creating to include those themes. As part of the larger goal, yeah. 

Jackie: I love that. Thank you for sharing that, I love that you're working with an education system because I think that is the beginning of the breakdown of where we start to separate, right? Not understanding the ramifications of things that occurred, or, you know, I read something where someone said, you know, one of the issues is that slavery was taught as the history of Black people and not the history of white people.

Right, and so what does that look like, right as, as us history, as you said earlier, rather than, you know, history, and then the, the little chapter of quote unquote black history, which is separate from the rest of history, right. What's the pull through from slavery to the 13th amendment and the loopholes that were created there and, you know, the, the inequities in lending and education,

criminal justice and you know, so many different things because it's not back to my earlier question, it's not about 400 years ago. It's about how that pulls through generation to generation to generation, which is why we need restorative justice. 

David: Yeah, absolutely. And I think in some ways, like that's a bigger question than I have answers for, right. And I know it's not all my responsibility to be able to solve the last 400 years of white supremacy on this continent. But the more people start thinking about that, the quicker we'll get to some of those solutions. 

Jackie: That's absolutely right, and I think just to reiterate for our listeners, wherever you are in your journey of understanding just the concepts, right?

When, when you hear white supremacy and your initial reaction is defensiveness, remember that this conversation and what we're talking about today is about being connected with other people. And we can all certainly agree on that. And how do we make that happen for ourselves and for our families, for our children, right who we're teaching and within our workspaces as well. 

David, tell me about your podcast. So you have a podcast it's called This Restorative Justice Life. Tell us about it. 

David: I actually have two podcasts. One is This Restorative Justice Life. The other one is called Diversity and Inclusion Revolution and Reform that one's newer it's with me with one of my, partners in this work, Connie Ni Chiu. And on that podcast, we talk with diversity and inclusion advocates, academics, professionals, and even people who are doing work inside organizations about the limits of D&I and whether or not like this is really what's going to get us free towards liberation, or if it's just reforming these systems of white supremacy to like be more compassionate overlords.

So that's one podcast

Jackie: Whoa, you can't skip past that. I wouldn't need to rewind the tape on that. So that we're doing more than just being more compassionate overlords, is that what you said? 

David: Right. Are we reforming? Are we reforming these systems to like great, you call me by my pronouns and you celebrate my heritage month while you still exploit labor and X, Y, Z, right, or are we really transforming towards power sharing and equity and justice? Meeting people's needs. So that's that piece of my podcast life. The other one is This Restorative Justice Life, which is a podcast that I've been running for over a year now. And that's a podcast with restorative justice practitioners, circle keepers, and others doing this work about how this way of being has impacted their personal and professional lives, right? 

Many of these people work within the criminal legal system or within schools or within organizations, but we talk about their journey similar to the way that I, shared with you about how they got into this the different ways that they've been impacted by this, right? Because it's not just about like, hey, I prevented this kid from getting suspended today or like, hey, instead of 10 years being locked up, like this person was able to sit and go through a restorative process and make amends and repair harm.

It's also the impact that it has on us. And similar to DEI, there's not necessarily like a pipeline for. Learning how to be restorative, right. And so, on that podcast, we share a bunch of folk’s stories. Some of them are my mentors, some of the people who provided with my, from afar for a long time.

And some of them are people that I've just been connected with over the last year or so. and we have really fun generative conversations about this work and its role in the world and our individual lives.

Jackie: Love it. Thank you for sharing that. They've been one question that I ask every single person on the podcast. Tell us something about you that not a lot of people know.

David: Yeah, and this comes to mind cause we were just talking about it at dinner yesterday or a couple of days ago. I had dessert first. It was, they were donuts from one of my favorite places here in LA called Donut Friend, and then as we were starting to eat the meal, oh, I'm not feeling as good.

Like my sugar tolerance isn't what it used to be. Like, I love donuts, but as I'm getting up there with a slowing metabolism sugar does things to me that it didn't used to. And I know that's part of growing up and making better decisions about that, but, I don't have to like it. I just have to make peace. 

Jackie: Oh, you know, the aging process. It's not for the faint of heart as they say anyway. Wow, that's awesome. Thanks for sharing that. I love dessert first, so that's, that's really cool. You know, that's been a, that's one of the fun things about like being a grownup. Cause I remember when I could eat dessert first, like when I was, I had moved out and I'm like, oh, I can do what I want.

And that's a great feeling, right. Moving into like, yeah, I got to reduce the sugar, reduce the alcohol, reduce all those fun things that you do in your, your mid-twenties, early twenties. Right? Right. So what's the message, David, that you want to leave our listeners with today. 

David: I thought about this earlier, and I think the short version is. No the world wasn't always this way and it doesn't have to be this way going forward. But in order to change the world, you have to change yourself. So change starts with you. If you want to see these changes do the work. 

Jackie: Do the work, absolutely. So David tell us how people can connect with you and learn more about Amplify RJ.

David: Yeah. amplifyRJ.com, Amplify RJ on all social media amplifyrj@gmail.com, if you want a direct line those are all the ways we are I'm coming out of a strategy planning time and some offerings might be a little bit more available that are public facing, but I'm always happy to talk to you about what this work looks like in your context in your organization. So holler at your boy. 

Jackie: David. Thank you so much for spending some time with me today. It was really interesting to dig into restorative justice and understand for our listeners what that means and learn more about your work and what you're doing and how we can contribute to that. So thank you for taking the time today.

David: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.